login
Hints
(Greetings from The On-Line Encyclopedia of Bongard Problems!)
Search: +ex:BP1127
Displaying 1-5 of 5 results found.     page 1
     Sort: id      Format: long      Filter: (all | no meta | meta)      Mode: (words | no words)
BP512 Abstract Bongard Problems vs. concrete visual Bongard Problems.
BP218
BP331
BP360
BP373
BP378
BP379
BP393
BP512
BP543
BP792
BP793
BP795
BP796
BP797
BP801
BP812
BP813
BP824
BP833
BP839
BP847
BP865
BP869
BP871
BP879
BP880
BP881
BP882
BP894
BP917
BP954
BP955
BP957
BP978
BP987

. . .

BP1
BP322
BP334
BP946
BP1123
(edit; present; nest [left/right]; search; history)
COMMENTS

BPs sorted left are tagged with the keyword "abstract" on the OEBP. The solution is not an easily-checked or concretely-defined geometrical or numerical property in pictures.

CROSSREFS

Adjacent-numbered pages:
BP507 BP508 BP509 BP510 BP511  *  BP513 BP514 BP515 BP516 BP517

KEYWORD

abstract, meta (see left/right), links, keyword, left-self, sideless

WORLD

bp [smaller | same | bigger]

AUTHOR

Aaron David Fairbanks

BP866 Bongard Problems that admit examples fitting the solution in various creative ways vs. not so.
BP200
BP335
BP344
BP346
BP350
BP351
BP352
BP353
BP354
BP355
BP356
BP357
BP361
BP362
BP372
BP373
BP380
BP548
BP792
BP793
BP796
BP802
BP803
BP805
BP827
BP828
BP829
BP831
BP833
BP834
BP835
BP836
BP843
BP845
BP846

. . .

BP1
BP4
(edit; present; nest [left/right]; search; history)
COMMENTS

Left-sorted Bongard Problems have the keyword "creativeexamples" on the OEBP.

Be encouraged to contribute new interesting examples to Bongard Problems with this keyword.


There is much overlap with the keyword hardsort.



This is what it usually means to say examples fit on (e.g.) the left of a Bongard Problem in various creative ways: there is no (obvious) general method to determine a left-fitting example fits left.


There is a related idea in computability theory: a "non recursively enumerable" property is one that cannot in general be checked by a computer algorithm.

But keep in mind the tag "creativeexamples" is supposed to mean something less formal. For example, it requires no ingenuity for a human being to check when a simple shape is convex or concave (so BP4 is not labelled "creativeexamples"). However, it is not as if we use an algorithm to do this, like a computer. (It is not even clear what an "algorithm" would mean in this context, since it is ambiguous both what class of shapes the Bongard Problem sorts and how that would be encoded into a computer program's input. There are usually many options and ambiguities like this whenever one tries to formalize the content of a Bongard Problem.)

CROSSREFS

Adjacent-numbered pages:
BP861 BP862 BP863 BP864 BP865  *  BP867 BP868 BP869 BP870 BP871

KEYWORD

notso, meta (see left/right), links, keyword

WORLD

bp [smaller | same | bigger]

AUTHOR

Aaron David Fairbanks

BP1124 Bongard Problems such that examples are always by default sorted left, until some unforeseen way of fitting right is noticed (a person is never "sure" something should fit left, but can be "sure" something fits right) vs. vice versa.
BP347
BP829
BP1127
BP801
BP1155
BP1163
(edit; present; nest [left/right]; search; history)
COMMENTS

Left-sorted Bongard Problems have the keyword "left-unknowable" on the OEBP.

Right-sorted Bongard Problems have the keyword "right-unknowable".


Think of searching for needles in endless haystacks. You can be sure a haystack has a needle by finding it, but you can never be sure a haystack does not have a needle.


When a Bongard Problem is "left-unknowable", individual examples cannot be determined for certain to fit left, by any means. The author of the Bongard Problem just chooses some examples that seem to fit left. (See also the noproofs keyword.)


It is very extreme for this to apply to all examples without exception. Often a Bongard Problem is close to being purely left-unknowable, but a few examples spoil it by being obviously disqualified from the right side for some reason.


It is natural for a person to guess the solution to an unknowable Bongard Problem before actually understanding all the knowable examples, taking some of them on faith.

As a prank, take a left- or right- unknowable Bongard Problem and put an example that actually belongs on the unknowable side on the knowable side. The solver will have to take it on faith there is some reason it fits there they are not seeing.

(The property of having this kind of sorting mistake is unknowable for left- or right- unknowable Bongard Problems.)



One interpretation of topology (a subject of mathematics -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology ) is that a topology describes the observability of various properties. (The topological "neighborhoods" of a point are the subsets one could determine the point to be within using a finite number of measurements.) The analogue of a property that is nowhere directly observable is a "subset with empty interior". Furthermore, the fact that the negation of the property is observable corresponds to the subset being "closed".

CROSSREFS

Left- or right- unknowable Bongard Problems are generally notso Bongard Problems: an example fits on one side just in case it cannot be observed to fit on the other.


Although the descriptions of left-couldbe and right-couldbe sound similar to "left-unknowable" and "right-unknowable", they are not the same. It is the difference between a clear absence of information and perpetual uncertainty about whether there is more information to be found. For any example sorted on a "could be" side, there is a clear (knowable) absence of information whose presence would justify the example being on the other side.

Sometimes an unknowable BP can be turned into a couldbe BP by explicitly restricting the amount of available information. For example, if there were a hypothetical Bongard Problem with infinitely detailed pictures, using a low resolution for all pictures could simplify the issue of detecting some properties that would be "unknowable". Many fractal-based BPs are this way (e.g. BP1122). See keyword infinitedetail.


Right-unknowable Bongard Problems are generally left-narrow (and left-unknowable Bongard Problems are generally right-narrow).


A Bongard Problem with examples on both sides cannot be tagged both proofsrequired and left- or right- unknowable.


Many Bongard Problems are about finding rules (keyword rules)--in each panel a rule is to be found, and there are no specified limits about what kind of rule it can be or how abstract it can be. (Just like a Bongard Problem.) "There is a rule vs. there isn't" (resp. vice versa) are right- (resp. left-) unknowable. (That is, disregarding cases that obviously do not define a rule because of some trivial disqualifying reason.)


Actually, I think there is something more to be said about this. It is possible to design examples that signal there is no rule to be found. See for example EX9138 in BP1127 and EX6829 in BP829. (Related: keyword help.) Each of these examples communicates a clear rule that "doesn't count". And there is so little information shown that a person can feel confident they've noticed all the relevant details. So, contrary to how they are currently tagged, these Bongard Problems aren't strictly "unknowable"; there are some exceptional knowable cases. But being too strict about the definition of "unknowable" makes it so there aren't any examples of unknowable Bongard Problems, so it's probably better to be a bit loose. - Aaron David Fairbanks, Apr 20 2022

Adjacent-numbered pages:
BP1119 BP1120 BP1121 BP1122 BP1123  *  BP1125 BP1126 BP1127 BP1128 BP1129

EXAMPLE

The perfect example is BP1163.


Interesting example of a Bongard Problem that is neither left-unknowable nor right unknowable in particular, but for which it is impossible to know whether any example fits on either side: BP1229 (translational symmetry vs. not) made with examples that can be expanded to any larger finite region the solver wants to look at. In this case, examples could only be sorted based on what they seem like (see seemslike), trusting they appear in a way that hints psychologically at what they actually are (see help).

KEYWORD

dual, meta (see left/right), links, keyword, side, viceversa

AUTHOR

Aaron David Fairbanks

BP1158 Bongard Problems in which each example communicates a rule vs. other Bongard Problems.
BP346
BP349
BP350
BP351
BP352
BP353
BP354
BP355
BP356
BP357
BP361
BP362
BP365
BP372
BP379
BP380
BP393
BP792
BP805
BP839
BP841
BP843
BP845
BP846
BP848
BP849
BP852
BP855
BP870
BP893
BP917
BP951
BP973
BP975
BP979

. . .

?
BP347
(edit; present; nest [left/right]; search; history)
COMMENTS

Left-sorted Bongard Problems have the keyword "rules" on the OEBP.


In the typical "rules" Bongard Problem, it is possible to come up with many convoluted rules that fit each example, but the intended interpretation is the only simple and obvious one.


Since it is difficult to communicate a rule with little detail, "rules" Bongard Problems are usually infodense.

Typically, each example is itself a bunch of smaller examples that all obey the rule. It is the same as how a Bongard Problems relies on many examples to communicate rules; it likely wouldn't get the answer across with just one example.

Often, each rule is communicated just by showing some examples of things satisfying it placed next to each other. (See keywords left-narrow and right-narrow.) Contrast Bongard Problems, which are more communicative, by showing some examples satisfying the rule and some examples NOT satisfying the rule.

BP1157 is an example of a "rules" Bongard Problem in which each intended rule is communicated by just one example of its application; these rules have to be particularly simple and intuitive, and the individual examples have to be complicated enough to communicate them.


A "rules" Bongard Problem is often collective. Some examples may admit multiple equally plausible rules, and the correct interpretation of each example only becomes clear once the solution is known. The group of examples together improve the solver's confidence about having understood each individual one right.

It is common that there will be one or two examples with multiple reasonable interpretations due to oversight of the author.

CROSSREFS

All meta Bongard Problems are "rules" Bongard Problems.

Many of the other Bongard-Problem-like structures seen on the OEBP are also about recognizing a pattern. (See keyword structure.)


"Rules" Bongard Problems are abstract, although the individual rules in them may not be abstract. "Rules" Bongard Problems also usually have the keyword creativeexamples.

Adjacent-numbered pages:
BP1153 BP1154 BP1155 BP1156 BP1157  *  BP1159 BP1160 BP1161 BP1162 BP1163

KEYWORD

fuzzy, meta (see left/right), links, keyword, left-self, rules

AUTHOR

Aaron David Fairbanks

BP1180 Bongard Problems where every example establishes its own distinct "world" of allowed objects vs. Bongard Problems where every example pulls from the same set of allowed objects.
BP139
BP142
BP144
BP145
BP353
BP354
BP356
BP357
BP360
BP364
BP365
BP373
BP379
BP393
BP792
BP841
BP917
BP951
BP979
BP981
BP998
BP999
BP1003
BP1004
BP1049
BP1110
BP1123
BP1127
BP1153
BP1157
BP1175
BP1185
BP1191
BP48
BP90
BP121
BP149
BP189
BP291
BP840
BP956
(edit; present; nest [left/right]; search; history)
COMMENTS

Left-sorted Problems have the keyword "miniworlds" on the OEBP.


All examples in this Problem are visual Bongard Problems with multiple objects in most panels. This is key as an intuitive set of allowable objects needs to be communicated by any one sorted image.


There is a decent degree of overlap between rules and "miniworlds", but BP1049 is an example of a "miniworlds" problem where the rule is constant across examples, and BP1155 is an example of a "rules" Problem that would not be tagged "miniworlds".


Although this Problem does sort any BP whose examples are images of Bongard Problems left, it is probably best not to consider them to avoid clutter and more unnecessary keywords being attached to them.

CROSSREFS

Adjacent-numbered pages:
BP1175 BP1176 BP1177 BP1178 BP1179  *  BP1181 BP1182 BP1183 BP1184 BP1185

KEYWORD

meta (see left/right), links, keyword

WORLD

visualbp [smaller | same | bigger]

AUTHOR

Leo Crabbe

    page 1

Welcome | Solve | Browse | Lookup | Recent | Links | Register | Contact
Contribute | Keywords | Concepts | Worlds | Ambiguities | Transformations | Invalid Problems | Style Guide | Goals | Glossary